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by Jesusbill on 6 Nov 2020, edited 6 Nov 2020
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+2 votes
@JanF keep in mind that an Architect cannot prepare the analytical model that the Engineer will use because there are many assumptions and modelling choices to be made that can also vary even between engineers; there is not a unique truth in the model representation. Unless the Engineer in communication with the Architect has set his rules of representation and there is a predefined modelling path.
Regarding export from structural software, some of them do have it but it is usually the 3D equivalent of an analytical model, so not a correct 3D model as you would expect. For example, the columns penetrate in the slabs until the mid-plane, beams are connected in their centers and maybe also some eccentricities may be lost, for example two external structural walls of different thickness will have the same mid-plane representation in the structural analysis model which result in a 3D representation that is not aligned with respect to the external surface as one would expect.
Code_Aster is just a structural solver, it has no knowledge of IFC, such an export should be developed in a software that is used to create the model, like Salome, or directly in IFC authoring tools like BlenderBIM and FreeCAD
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by bernd on 6 Nov 2020
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+2 votes
Evetually there are three modells.
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Architects geometrical modell for all elements including building shell (loadbearing walls and slabs and beams)
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Engineers geometrical modell for building shell (loadbearing walls and slabs and beams), which will be used on building site.
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Engineers analysis modell for structural analysis.
ATM we do not spend time to convert between geometrical and analysis model. An initial converter does makes sense and works. But this only works once and does not save much amount of time compared to the whole project. What takes time are the changes and changes and changes. These needs to do manually anyway, thus ATM we do have two separate models, the geometrical and the analytical. The only thing we do is to import the geometrical and use it to get the points to make fast changes on the analytical model.
BUT we do spend much more time on how to make the workflow smarter between the geometrical Architecture modell and the geometrical engineering model. These models needs to be identical. They are on bounding box, but mostly they are not element by element.
cheers bernd
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by JanF on 6 Nov 2020
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Ok, I din't know there are actually two SE models. Is the SE geometrical model normaly precise enough to be used directly as a part of the complete model? I read this article: (it's unfortunately in Czech)
https://www.bimfo.cz/Aktuality/Priklad-spoluprace-v-Revitu-se-statickym-IFC-model.aspx
They are describing a workflow, where the SE exports her geometrical model and the A only uses it as an overlay - A link it to their file and model only the non-loadbearing elements. Apparently it works quite well for them.
@theoryshaw so if I understand correctly, your ideal is a central model, which anyone can download a part of, import into his software, make changes and export with the same GUID and propose an update? I think this is extremly hard - it would mean that every software develops an ifc to native data importer.
The difference to software development is, that the format in programing is primitive text and you do the complex translation from language to language in your brain. In architecture we have one more step - the primitive geometry needs to be first translated into the comlex parametric software language and first then into the architectonic language in our brain.
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by Jesusbill on 6 Nov 2020
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@theoryshaw Ideally yes, as long as there is a common schema type that encloses all related disciplines. That is why structural-analysis IFC is an important addition to the open-source workflow
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by jtm2020hyo on 7 Nov 2020
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sorry for my ignorance, but how could I use SAV or SAF format to do FEM structural analysis in Blender or FreeCAD?
anyone could share a sample or example video?
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by Jesusbill on 7 Nov 2020
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+2 votes
@jtm2020hyo you can't at the moment. FreeCAD has integrated FEM analysis with 3D solid elements (FEM Module) but it is not associated with the IFC (what was called SAV above) format, as far as I know. The SAF format is new and has not been implemented at all in open-source software to my knowledge.
Ifc2ca is being developed to use IFC format and structural analysis objects to perform finite element analysis with Code_Aster, an open-source finite element solver, in this thread you can see more about it, but at the moment neither Blender nor FreeeCAD are connected to it.
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by Herman on 9 Nov 2020, edited 9 Nov 2020
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@Luis: yes SAF is free to use but for SCIA AutoConverter you need a license indeed. It is a web application that is not for free.
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by Herman on 9 Nov 2020, edited 9 Nov 2020
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@Bernd: The SCIA AutoConverter is not only converting a structural model (model with all load bearing objects) it is also covering the changes. If the structural model has changed we will track those changes and update the existing analysis model. meaning all input like loads and boundaries are kept. Also when analysis model has been adapted we will create tasks (BCF way of working) for the modeler to be able to update his model. This part is manual but tracked via the issue management of the solution.
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by Luis on 12 Nov 2020, edited 12 Nov 2020
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@Herman said:
@Luis: yes SAF is free to use but for SCIA AutoConverter you need a license indeed. It is a web application that is not for free.
Thanks Herman.
Just for the record, I was asking about its "openess" (that's the essential activity of this group) not about the cost. For example OpenProject is open source but it is not free.
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by Moult on 12 Nov 2020
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@Herman if you are interested in reading about what we mean by open, and what licenses are defined as being open, you can read this section of the wiki: https://wiki.osarch.org/index.php?title=Open-Source_Architecture_Community#The_reason_OSArch_exists
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by Herman on 12 Nov 2020
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@Luis said:
@Herman said:
@Luis: yes SAF is free to use but for SCIA AutoConverter you need a license indeed. It is a web application that is not for free.
Thanks Herman.
Just for the record, I was asking about its "openess" (that's the alma mater of this group) not about the cost. For example OpenProject is open source but it is not free.
Yes I understand. Sorry for confusing. The SCIA AutoConverter is not Open source. Concerning SAF We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
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by aothms on 12 Nov 2020
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+2 votes
@Herman said:
We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
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by Herman on 12 Nov 2020
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@aothms said:
@Herman said:
We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
We are working on a kind of SAF Toolkit that will be open source and will make the implementation of SAF much easier. It is a bit similar as the IFC Toolkits you can buy. You just defien the object and the attributes and the whole formatting will be done automatically.
We also will put all on Github.
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by Luis on 12 Nov 2020
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@Herman said:
@aothms said:
@Herman said:
We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
We are working on a kind of SAF Toolkit that will be open source and will make the implementation of SAF much easier. It is a bit similar as the IFC Toolkits you can buy. You just defien the object and the attributes and the whole formatting will be done automatically.
We also will put all on Github.
Great news! Looking forward to testing that toolkit. Have you chosen the language/languages you'll use?
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by Moult on 12 Nov 2020
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@Herman would it be possible to consider providing support for Python? C# is highly Windows-centric, even though in theory it is cross platform. This can make it very difficult to integrate cross-platform, and can cut out many of the users here on OSArch.
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by duncan on 9 Dec 2020
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@Jesusbill could you or anyone please write a bit about SAF / SAV for the wiki with some links? I can't find much online. Maybe the first page is just a quick mention here: https://wiki.osarch.org/index.php?title=AEC_Open_Data_Standards_Directory
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by bernd on 9 Dec 2020
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@Herman same as moult from my side. C# might be a good choice for windows, but in the open source world lots of people work with Linux and C# and Linux are far away from being good friends. Python would be awesome.
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by bernd on 9 Dec 2020
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In the regard of FreeCAD and structural analysis of BIM models. The FEM module is able to do solid and face analysis. But there are no converters to get a axis model out of a geometric 3D model. This has to be done manually. What works quite well is directly mesh the solid structure and analyze this. But this is not yet common workflow in concrete analysis. BTW it is possible get the reinforcement ratio for such a solid analysis. Cool for analysis of huge structures like foundations or pile heads. AFAIK in code aster this is only possible for face analysis.
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by bernd on 9 Dec 2020
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The model updating stuff sounds very interesting, but in this regard lots of vendors have promised a lot but Noone ever has brought a practical solution...
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by bernd on 9 Dec 2020, edited 9 Dec 2020
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@Herman your marketing guys do a great job. ... I had a conversation with an architect we work together with. He said: "Bernd there is some brand new cool format. As a BIM guy for sure you have heard of it. If I export these saf from my ArchiCAD you just need to import in your analysis tool and you are done!"
No comment on this one ...
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by Herman on 10 Dec 2020
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@bernd said:
@Herman your marketing guys do a great job. ... I had a conversation with an architect we work together with. He said: "Bernd there is some brand new cool format. As a BIM guy for sure you have heard of it. If I export these saf from my ArchiCAD you just need to import in your analysis tool and you are done!"
Great to hear that Bernd. As discussed previously in this chat also have a look at The SCIA AutoConverter. It is transforming any BIM model from any BIM tool into a structural analysis model that can be transferred via SAF to all analysis software supporting this format like SCIA Engineer.
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by duncan on 10 Dec 2020, edited 10 Dec 2020
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+1 votes
I've created a page for documenting and/or linking to this work https://wiki.osarch.org/index.php?title=Structural_AnalysisFormat(SAF)
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by Jesusbill on 10 Dec 2020
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+1 votes
@duncan looks great I will add more content when I find the time , I created a page for Salome_Meca and will do one for ifc2ca as well.